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Billy: You having experience? I think you know. Um, what will and will not mm-hmm. Heal nicely over time. Mm-hmm. But a lot of, a lot of the artists out there, some of them knew, some of them not. Um, they'll mix pigments together thinking like, oh, this is gonna, like, this looks great right here, but they don't really take into consideration, or they don't know how it's gonna heal over time. Mm-hmm. And, you know, you know, that's when we see, like, we have some, we've seen some brows. It's like, I don't know what color that is. Yeah. Like, it's just. Mixed, you know, and it always seems to turn like this burgundy color and we're like, oh no, here we go again. Like we can tell right away. Sara: Yeah. And it's frustrating 'cause then you feel like this industry's in this vicious cycle and there's no changes being made. It's like same pigments then the laser and the yellow, the you. Yeah. So I, Billy: that's one of the reasons why I really wanted to do this podcast was to, to bring a little bit of awareness about pigments. And what works with laser, what doesn't, you know, all of our experiences, I'd like to share it so that way we can help educate people. Mm-hmm. Sara: I think too, um, the way pigment is implanted in the skin when it's oversaturated, that's when you really get the more ashy gray tones and then there's the correct or put on top. So if everybody could just lighten their hand in the pigment load, you'll see that color a lot more to, I don't know if that makes sense. It does, yeah. Billy: Be if you're delicate with the application. Then you'll see a nice crisp, and then Sara: your touch-ups are a lot more refreshing to see those, those warm colors without oversaturation all the time. Billy: Well, I think that that skill comes with confidence. If you have confidence and you know how it's gonna heal, because when you're doing the tattoo, you have to trust the process as, as the tattooer. Mm-hmm. Or as the artist, you have to know how that's gonna heal. Mm-hmm. And if you don't and you try to do too much. The next thing you know, you have a big blown out tattoo. Mm-hmm. That's just gonna turn to a blob. Right. And I learned that the hard way. Yeah. Tattoo in when you know you're doing like a little script or something like that and you, you think, oh, that letter's not dark enough. I need to go over it a few times to get it to, you know. Mm-hmm. I want it to heal dark. And you see it like a year later and you're like, oh man. Sara: Yeah. Billy: That thing is blown out. Yeah. I went way too hard. Any type of line work that that. Is the case. Mm-hmm. I think that would be a very difficult thing to tattoo is like you're tattooing on the face. Um, there's hairs there. Mm-hmm. And you're trying to do single needle lines on like, can you pick a harder thing to do? Sara: I know it, it's funny too, 'cause my clients with no brows or alopecia clients is with best, you know, it's a clean slate. Mm-hmm. It's almost like a piece of paper. It is like needle in a haystack when people have. Full hair. Yeah. You know, trying to fish in there and find that line. But it's fun. Yeah. Sometimes I do sit back and I'm like, wow, the, these people have so much trust in me and tattooing their face, you know, it's, it's pretty, pretty rewarding, you know? Billy: It is. And it's the same with doing, um, with the removal. Mm-hmm. Sometimes we see people come in and, and they're not happy with their brows at all, and they look after the first session when we, you know, we do get lucky sometimes and we'll just completely remove it. Sara: Oh yeah. I have those clients. Yeah. Yeah. And I post them on my Instagram. They're still there. Just like, look at this. But also you educate that it's not always gonna be that way. Billy: Yeah. It's definitely not. But we do get lucky sometimes. And when we see those clients look in the mirror and they, you know, we have people crying for joy. Mm-hmm. All the time. But then again, there, there are some other ones that are not as easy at all. Mm-hmm. So I don't want anybody to get the impression that this is an easy, you know. An easy process on average, it usually takes anywhere between three sessions and six sessions to completely remove the pigment and not damage the skin. Mm-hmm. And I always tell people, you know, they hem and haw about oh three to six sessions. That's, and they do the math in their head. They're like, oh, that's gonna be, you know, eight months or whatever it's gonna be. I tell 'em, I, I say, we can get that off in one session if you want, but that's, I don't think that's what you want. Mm-hmm. You know, you wanna do it safely. Mm-hmm. You don't wanna damage the hair follicles. You don't want to singe them off or create scar tissue that you can't cover with the tattoo. Mm-hmm. So that's my goal when, when you send your clients to us, I want to educate 'em. I want to do the job properly and send them back to you with a nice, clean slate with no scar tissue. Sara: Mm-hmm. It's important. Taking care of their skin. And again, I always say, this is your face. It's like, don't just cover it up and then have to deal with, 'cause you're gonna have to deal with it. At some point you're gonna have to get it removed and now's the time, you know, before you make it worse. And then you are dealing with all those funky colors. And who knows, Billy: we normally say after laser. It's a good idea to wait at least three months mm-hmm. Before you get tattooed again. Mm-hmm. And sometimes we see our clients and you po you'll post a picture of like, redoing their browser. Like another artist will post it. Yeah. And it'll be like three weeks after. Oh, Sara: I've, I've had clients that come to me and as soon as my needle is in the skin. Sometimes even when I'm drawing, like, I'm like, this is like butter skin. This is not healed. I've had a, I had a client once that I knew, she wasn't honest with me about how long it'd been. Mm-hmm. And that was, that was frustrating. So I make it, you know, learning from that. Experience with that client. I make it really clear, like we need your skin to be fully healed, for you to get the best results. Billy: So when you see somebody come in immediately after getting laser and you try to tattoo the skin, what's the difference that, like how do you know that the skin is not fully intact? Sara: Um, well, it all depends. Sometimes it's a little, I have to go a little slower. You know, make sure that the pigment is setting in there. But I, again, it all depends on the skin type. It can be mm-hmm. Very different. Um, I switch my needles sometimes to a little bigger of a configuration. Billy: But Do you notice, like you said, butter skin earlier? Yeah. So do you mean like the skin is so soft that it's not firm enough to, you feel like it's not gonna retain the pigment? Sara: Um, sometimes. Yeah, Billy: that's what I, that's what I think. Mm-hmm. Sara: And that's Billy: what I normally tell people. Sara: Yeah. And you, you can tell. I mean, like I said, that one client in particular, when I wiped my first stroke, it was like almost gone. Yeah. And I'm like, girl, like this. Come on. You know? You know, I slowly got a little bit more out of her. She didn't come to you for the removal, but, um, I think a lot of that had to do with. Maybe some scarring as well. Mm-hmm. From the previous work, but her skin from the removal, like it was pretty bad. Yeah. Like you can tell. Um, but yeah, I do make it a big point. Like I will not touch you unless it's been three months. Billy: I, I think three months is a, is a good amount of time. If I, I know I've gotten laser, you know, in spots like on my leg or whatever, and the feeling after a couple weeks, it's not done. Mm-hmm. It's, it still has to kind of get back to normal and it does take a couple months minimum. Mm-hmm. Um, it's not a great feeling. I'm not. I'll be the first to say that I, I actually hate getting laser. Sara: No, mine wasn't bad at all. It wasn't? No. And did you numb me? Do you not? I don't even remember. Billy: I don't know if we used numbing. Sara: I just remember the ice cube and the hose. We used ice and it was so fast. Billy: We used ice. We used the chiller. It's usually pretty fine for me though. I don't know if, if I'm just a sissy or if I'm hypersensitive or whatever, but it hurts and I know after even a month's time, I do not want a tattoo over that spot. Yeah, like there's no way in the world I've had laser on my legs and like arms and stuff, but if it was my face, I think definitely waiting the amount of time that is recommended is probably a good idea.